The Hidden Power of Deep Relationships in Accelerating Gospel Growth

0:00 Welcome to the Hitting the Ball You Cannot See podcast, where we take the conversation that we've been starting with the book, and we take it further with some incredible leaders. And today, here with me, I have some great people that's going to take us further in this conversation as we've been having some fun. So... Let me take a moment just to ask them to introduce themselves. Today on the podcast, I've got with me my partner in crime, Micah. Micah, it's nice to have you with us. Thanks so much for having me. So excited to be here with you guys. So Micah, you're a youth pastor at the moment in San Marcos.

0:42 Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I'm a youth pastor at Promised Land Church in the city of San Marcos. And so what an honor to be able to pour into the next generation and to pastor them. It's great to have you with us. I also have with us Jen. Jen is a little bit like where's Waldo or where's Wally, depending on which part of the world you come from. But I think we catch you today in Oklahoma. I am in Oklahoma, yes. It's good to be here, Yuri and Luke and Micah. I'm excited for this conversation, absolutely. Jen, say a little more about what it is that you do these days. Yeah, absolutely. So I serve as Vice President of Collaborative Partnerships at an organization called One Hope that serves the next generation around the world.

1:27 And I also serve as Executive Director for Propel Women that is focusing on raising up and equipping women all around the world for leadership within the kingdom. Well, Jen, thank you for what you're doing in that space. I mean, we're so excited about OneOap and just getting God's word to every child. And then the work you're doing in women's leadership, you know, I'm your doctorate's biggest fan. And I think you need to speak to leaders everywhere about how to raise up women in collaboration. It really is exciting to have you with us. Luke, you are officially my one and only rock star friend. But tell us a little more about you and what you do.

2:10 Well, I'm speaking to you all from Southwest Poland, and I'm part of the leadership of a mission called Steiger. We have teams in cities all around the world sharing Jesus in bold, creative ways, reaching a generation, many people who wouldn't usually walk into the church anymore. And so just connecting with them in a way they can understand. And we do a lot with evangelism and discipleship and bridging the gap between secular culture and the church today. So our heart really is to reach that global youth culture around the world. And yeah, I have a band. So that's one of the ways I share the gospel. And that's why Yuri likes introducing me as a rock star.

2:51 But it's all about sharing the message with people that wouldn't hear about it usually. So cool. around the way in which the world is changing and how do we actually respond in a way that faith accurately addresses current culture. So that conversation we've broken up into three portions.

3:33 The first portion of the conversation was all about the first way the world is changing, and that's just the human experience, right? So what it means to be human is changing, our digital existence is changing. The second part of this conversation then It has to do with the way the world works and just understanding the fact that trust is changing and organizations are changing. And then this third part of the conversation deals with the way people connect and how connection has changed. And basically, there's two key shifts here. The one shift is just around separation. where we're less separated from one another, but at the same time, more separated than ever before in history.

4:19 And also just belonging and the importance of belonging in the season and how belonging has changed in the season and how it's changed the gospel. So that's basically also just the key chapters in the book that we'll be covering in today's conversation. But the Today we're talking about human connections and human connections have changed. I have certainly experienced as a leader that the gospel advances at the rate of relationship. And the quality of relationship is in direct correlation with the speed of the advance of the gospel in this generation and in every generation before it. It certainly is true for our relationships, right?

4:59 If I think back of our history together, I can point to some projects. I can point to some conversations in my life that has accelerated the gospel. But it's a difficult season to build relationships. So I'd love for us to not start with a key learning or a great big piece of wisdom, but just with a struggle. And I want to check in with you guys and just say, how have you struggled with, to build relationships. What has been tough about building meaningful relationships as a leader in this day and age that we live in? So I'll start with an easy question. We'll get to the tough ones later.

5:41 Jen, why don't you go ahead? Go ahead. Yeah, I was like, I think it's a great question. I think it's something that probably all conversations should have some element of it involved in. When we're talking about this with leaders, I think it goes unnoticed, untalked about, but it's so important. I would say, you know, the agent... which we're living in which you name really well, Yuri, is just that we're in an accelerated age. Everything is moving at a pace and a rate that's so much faster than we've ever had at any point in history. And because of that, you, your relationships are in fact, um, really moving at that speed or at a slower pace.

6:26 So either you're moving your relationships at that pace with you, or you are relationally not quite caught up to speed yet. And I've seen that in my own life, right? Like I can move professional relationships forward because my whole professional world is integrated within the tech, the digital accelerated era. But relationally, you, It requires an awareness of me to sort of step back and say not all relationships are going to move at that pace and they should not move at that pace. So, I mean, think about it, like all of us every single day, we're getting text messages, voicemails, calls, emails, like every platform is demanding our attention.

7:09 And usually professionally, we're able to move that forward pretty quickly. Yeah. But those core relationships that we have to have to sustain a healthy and flourishing life, those often move at a slower pace. And they should. And there's a beauty in that. But a good leader, I think, is going to be forced to increasingly in the future and in today reckon with how do I make that transition between, yes, I'm moving a lot forward professionally and relationally on that front. But also personally, how do I maintain a sustainable pace with the relationships that matter most in my life? And so I've kind of gone back and forth on that over the last few months to a year, really recognizing how do I make the limited amount of time I have the most valuable with the relationships that are central to my life and sustaining a flourishing life as a whole.

7:59 That's so good, Jane, because I think there's a reality around, you know, you use the phrase, the limited time that you have, right? And it feels like time is more limited than what it's ever been, right? The time poverty is the great poverty of our age in so many ways. because of this attention economy where everybody's competing for your time and attention. But the amount of time you invest in relationships is going to determine the quality of those relationships. Your professional life is going to demand the time. But oftentimes, that means that there's nothing left to invest in those meaningful relationships that aren't professionally meaningful.

8:42 They're just meaningful because of what they are. And sometimes those just disappear. Luke, I'm sure you've seen a lot of this. I mean, you're an expert in youth culture and you really just dig into where people are at. How have you seen this play out in people's lives? Yeah. I mean, you say I'm an expert in youth culture. I don't know. I feel like I'm more like I just love trying to go where people are. And maybe that is the way we get to know this generation. That's as much expert as I think anybody can get. Let's call ourselves learners of youth culture. Well, that's it. I think that's maybe answering the question as well, which is it's so important that we go and meet people where they're at.

9:25 And so we really try to encourage believers to get outside the four walls of the church and get involved in secular culture in the city and connect with people more deeply. Because I think more than ever, there's just this huge need for relationship and community in the culture around us. And that's what people do. are lacking. They feel like they can't connect. Yeah, partly because of what you guys are saying about the speed of things and how relationships become so often so superficial with technology. But it's also, I think, there's an underlying kind of culture and worldview behind it as well.

10:06 We've tended to treat people like stuff a lot, unfortunately. Materialism has come in, secularism has affected us in such a big way where... Um, people find it really hard to know who to trust and how to belong somewhere. And so, um, it's, yeah, we have these ideas, uh, you know, like we're even confused about what love is. So, so it's really hard to, to have real meaningful relationships in, in a culture where we're kind of the victim of our own, own choices and our own worldview in that way. So I find that like reaching out to young people and young adults in the cities today, um, Too many are locking themselves up at home at the end of the day and being on Netflix and not wanting to go out and meet people.

10:50 At work, we kind of have those superficial conversations. We don't go deep. And we're not going to reach people. We're not going to be able to show people who Jesus is if we don't really connect in a more deep, meaningful way. So I think that's probably one of the biggest jobs of the church today and as leaders in the church globally is to how can we create spaces where people are truly and meaningfully connecting with each other? hearing each other and building real relationships. I think that's probably one of the most important things we can do for people to meet Jesus today. That's so good. Micah, you're facing that in the local church space. How's it playing out there? I think something that I've learned in the past couple just months is just being intentional.

11:32 And really, like Luke said, meeting people where they are. And so whether it's me having to take, you know, the last 30 minutes of my day, And I might not physically have the time to drive down, grab a coffee with you or to have a lunch with you. But I have 30 minutes where I can just sit on the phone and listen to you and be a voice in your life. And for you to also just to connect with me in a personal way versus, you know, being inside the church walls, even if I don't have time to actually go, I can pick up the phone. And just that 30 minutes can really just build that connection. it's it's so good because it's that i think part of the paradox that we're dealing with yeah so the the the the book kind of takes this angle of the paradox of proximity and separation where we're more connected but we're closer to one another and further from one another at the same time right so the loneliness epidemic and the hyper connectiveness of our time goes hand in hand but i think what that caused is is it's what luke referred to as a as a cheapening of relationships, right?

12:40 We have so many relationships that they lose their value. And what you're describing, Micah, is how we put that value back, right? How do we put the value back? How do we bring meaning back to relationships really is both the hunger of our time. And that's kind of where, where the conversation has gone from, uh, you know, the, the separation, the shift in separation to the shift in belonging, where belonging has become so much more important. because of the scarcity of these authentic relationships. What are some of the key things as a leader? Yeah, go for it, Luke. I also feel like we forget sometimes as believers, if we're connected into a good faith community, into a good church, and we're involved in each other's lives, we forget how precious that is.

13:26 You know, it's such a unique thing that Jesus formed and established in the church. It's an ability to belong. And so the culture is thirsty and hungry for belonging. And most people in society today, they don't get to experience it the same way, at least as the church is intended to be. And so it's, and as believers, we can sometimes get kind of just in our bubble and not realize how much people outside are often struggling with loneliness, with depression. Young people today, so much, you know, high rates of suicide and depression. And it is that lack of community and of truly belonging, of truly having deep relationships.

14:08 And so we have something unique to offer, I think, in that sense. And it points to the relevance of the church, right? It's actually more relevant than what it's ever been, right? So as the darkness of loneliness is increasing, the light of the church becomes more bright and it becomes more attractive. It becomes more relevant. Yeah. to society if we don't cheapen it, right? Because I think that sometimes is the problem is we respond to the world to become like the world. And then we just, we create transactional relationships with people when they're looking for true transformational ones. You know, so I think a shift is needed in the way we lead.

14:51 What does that look like? Jen, you get to see a very broad scope of the church through your work. How do we shift this? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of this conversation is grounded in knowing the time and the age that we live in and knowing it well. Knowing that we live and we lead in a society that craves and has access to digital nearness, but we know that digital nearness cannot replace embodied community. And that's what you guys are talking about today. And this epidemic of loneliness at its core is, in my opinion, a crisis of formation.

15:33 When we look at the world in which we're leading and living in, we're being shaped by environments that reward independence. They reward self-curation and protection and immediacy rather than covenant or interdependence and patience, you know, waiting for something to develop. So, yeah. Knowing the world in which we live in, I think, is a starting point. And I've heard now more than ever, leaders really waking up to that hunger to know more, to be able then to think differently and then ultimately act differently within the spheres of influence that they currently have.

16:13 So I just, there's something about us understanding that a lot of what we're facing is that crisis of formation. Am I continually being formed in the likeness of Christ? And then also, am I leading in a way that continually helps to shape and form those that I'm leading in the likeness of Christ? Ultimately, That would be one of my highest aspirations as a leader. And it's not based on metrics. It's not based on outcomes. It's not based on KPIs, but it's driven by my conviction and my proximity to the presence of God and ultimately knowing that out of that proximity and the presence of God flows all things.

16:56 And that's what I want people to encounter. I love that, Jen. So it's the true authentic nearness with God will result in true authentic nearness with others, right? But if our relationship with God becomes transactional, we run the risk of creating transactional relationships between people. But if there's an authentic nearness and realness in our relationship with God, then that will naturally result in authentic real relationships with others. That's powerful stuff right there. Yeah, so good. So good. So good. Dan Blythe makes this statement. It's actually, he's quoted in the book as saying that rows can't ask questions, circles can.

17:40 Right? So the old thing of moving from rows to moving to circles. Right? But it's surprisingly hard, right? So even putting people in circles, you're still up against culture, right? So culture is still transactional. Culture is still shadow. So, Jen, you're saying we need to understand our culture in order to change our culture. So we start where culture's at and we're moving them to something different. What are some of the practical... skills, examples that you guys have encountered of doing that really well? Who's doing it well? Who's winning this? Who's applying this in a way that is transformational that we can learn from?

18:21 Or what are the skills that you just say, man, if somebody's saying, yes, I feel like we're all about the rose and we're an old paradigm, it's transactional, it's light. We want to take relationships deeper and more authentic. What can a leader listening to the podcast today do to make that happen? I mean, I think a lot of the time what comes across to me is there's this need to change the way we've been doing things for a long time. And I think that is both in the realm of reaching the world, the lost, going outside the church, but it also relates to how we connect inside.

19:02 And I think we've had a model for a long time, which is come to us, come to our church. If I can put together the coolest church service, come, you'll love it. You'll feel welcome to music, it's gonna be great. Or if we do some kind of event, be it a big stadium event or an evangelistic event of any kind, let's make it cool enough so people come to us. And, and that's, you know, we should still do that. We should still do church well and do events well, but, um, we live in a culture and a time where there's such a need for us to go to people and really engage with them where, where they're at. And so that, that's kind of a bigger picture, just strategy. I think we need to think about and then getting to the specifics.

19:44 It's, it's, um. It's how are we being present, be it in culture, in art, in music, in the sports world, in the general conversation online, so that we can really hear people and then speak truth into that culture around us and bring the gospel into that. And if we do that well, then we'll be hitting where it hurts. You know, we'll be kind of... really connecting with people's heartfelt needs and where they're at. So if I just read a book about culture and then I try to, as a church leader, connect well, it's just not enough.

20:26 You've got to get close enough to really hear the stories and hear people's hearts so that you can connect. I mean, I'll give you an example with the work we do. Often apologetics is important and we want to know how to answer the difficult questions people are asking. But even more than a rational question, people have those feelings of lack of meaning and loneliness and lack of belonging. And if I can connect with that and show them how the gospel responds to that, people are so like, man, that's what I've been looking for. I need to hear this message. But that comes from going and spending time with people. Maybe that connects with what Dan was talking about, you know, the circle thing, because the moment you do a circle and you invite people in and you say, let's have a conversation.

21:10 I want to hear what you're saying. I don't want to just speak at you. I want to hear what you're saying. Then immediately you feel closer and immediately you can connect in a more relevant way. So, yeah, I think that maybe to put it shortly, we need to go to them more than wait for them to come to us. A rediscovery of the incarnation, right? So, a rediscovery of the body of Christ incarnating the image of Christ in the world we live in, right? So, we're not projecting Jesus from afar. We're incarnating Jesus up close. And that's messy, right? There's a reality of that not always being as clean and professional as maybe we're used to.

21:51 But I think that's what's necessary if we're going to reach this generation. You know, I was with Dan a couple of weeks ago in London for their first circles and spaces event in London that they hosted. And it was fascinating to see this in real time, right? The movement from rows to circles. I think one thing that we often overlook is the movement from rows to circles requires a movement from passivity to circles. an active posture of everyone that's sitting around together in that circle. So you're moving from I'm just a passive listener to now I'm an active participant in this conversation.

22:35 And when you have active participants, you also have owners. So there's something beautiful about the movement here. And it gets into how do we how do we not just as leaders own the responsibility of culture and these big aspirations that we have for all of our different organizations that we represent, but also like how do we how do we help people? move from passivity to being an active participant and owning a lot of what we're talking about, we're wrestling with. And I see it happening in churches around the world, and I see it happening through leaders who are activating. And I think, you know, circles represent more of a spiritual ecosystem than we realize. And I think within a circle, you know, questions have to be welcomed, and your stories and your cultures, they have to be honored.

23:22 But also there's an element where your gifts that are represented in that circle, they're activated. But also I would say that there has to be an element of where the spirit is collectively discerned in a circle. And that's the beauty of moving from just sitting next to each other in a row into actively participating together through the spirit towards kingdom work. And so it's a beautiful model, but I just love the aspect of it moves from being passive to a more active stance. it's some of that intentionality that you were referring to Micah, that, that real sense of just being intentional, right? You know, it is.

24:02 And I was thinking too, when we were talking about the circle thing, I think a lot of times when we get in circles, especially like as a leader, as a pastor, I love to talk, you know, we love to talk when we get in these circles, but when we want to reach people where they are, sometime we just need to be a listening ear in the moment and not always feel like, as being the leader, as being the pastor, that I have to preach all the time when I get in these circles and really just listen to people and meeting them where they are, most importantly. And then once they start opening up, then you apply the gospel to their situation. But first things first, just be a listening ear in the circle in a moment.

24:43 What we say is so much more power as an answer to a question than a statement preceding a question, right? Yes, sir. So good. Yeah. We have some friends in Minneapolis, in Minnesota, in the US, who decided, like, they have a podcast, maybe something like this, and they decided to go into universities and do an open podcast on the campus so students can come by and just join in. So there's an open mic there and say, hey, come join in the conversation. This is the theme today. And it's amazing how People wanted to get involved in this and join in. And you see that a lot.

25:23 There are different influences on TikTok or Instagram who that's their way of working. They'll connect into a campus and just open a conversation and people join in. In our mission, we run something called a Bible study for the non-religious. And so we'll go into a festival or into a club and we'll just sit and open a passage that might relate to a theme that's important for people. So, you know, did Jesus say anything about feminism? Or is there anything in the Bible about suicide? And so I'll open up a theme that's relevant to people, and then we'll read a short passage and say, what do you think about this? And just...

26:03 kind of touching that vein of the culture of everybody wanting to share their own ideas and thoughts about something draws people in. And then you get incredible information from just hearing how people engage with those themes and even with Scripture. You immediately get to hear a bit where they're at on their journey towards God, what's going on, and that gives you a much better way to engage with them and leading them to Jesus. So I think, you know, and that's something churches can do, pastors, it's not just evangelists going out to connect. You know, I've seen churches that will do their meetings out somewhere public so people can connect in.

26:44 I think that's such a cool way to go to people. it's so good. And I, I, this is such a rich conversation and, and, you know, I, I realized we were dealing with this conversation on the level of how do we reach people? But I think the other level is how do leaders connect with one another? So if we can maybe in the last couple of minutes, switch gears and just say, okay, so we've got to, The world is changing. People are closer together, further apart, greater competition for their attention than ever before. That's true. We've got to change the way we reach them, but we've also got to change the way we work from leader to leader. And I think that's one of the key findings, at least for the journey through these different shifts and the impact on the gospel for me, was just the whole discovery around the theology of collaboration, right?

27:31 That we've come from a season where you've had individual leadership, you know, God's men and women of power for the hour that kind of led individually and they had these colossal efforts to something of more a collaborative leadership style and even a multiplicity of leadership and a polycentric leadership, you know, not from one center down, but from everywhere to everywhere. These things, these models are emerging and even in church leadership in different spaces where, But how do we need to change our approach as leaders? What needs to be different for us to lead well in this different world?

28:13 Jen, I know you've been doing a lot of research and study into this, but any contributions you want to make? It's a little dangerous opening it up for me on that. But yeah, it's something I've really been wrestling with personally as a leader. How do I lead in the future that's already here? And the future is... is that we're moving into a more decentralized state of society than ever before. We look at globalization, we look at decentralization, we look at the rising connection. All of these global trends point to a more decentralized state of society.

28:53 And I think what's beautiful about that is the fact that from the very beginning as leaders, I think one shift that is required of us is to truly recognize, and I mean truly recognize, not just in theory, not just in understanding, but in deep practice, that the mission of God, the Missio Dei, has always been distributed. It was never centralized. And the Spirit has always worked to democratize influence, has always worked to distribute influence and power and authority around the world and to the margins. So you look at the biblical narrative and we see so many different central figures, right, that have been called from the margins, from the decentralized places into a place of authority, power, and influence to confront influence.

29:41 ways of man that then aim to centralize all of those things into themselves. And so truly recognizing that no single leader, no single organization or tradition or denomination holds the entirety of God's redemptive work here on earth, right? So for us, collaboration is not a leadership technique or principle. It is truly a Christological necessity and mandate for each and every single one of us. And so knowing that, that the spirit has always wanted to democratize influence power and authority to the margins is such a beautiful biblical picture that I'm just daily reminded of.

30:23 And I always have, I've, in the last few years, really attempted to shift my, my perspective to see where the Lord is leaning in spaces that are often overlooked. And that's where I see the, the beauty of the kingdom really starting to mobilize and accelerate in rates that are, faster than possibly normal. You wouldn't expect. So there's so much happening right now that I think is worth celebrating in the body of Christ and through incredible leaders of the kingdom. But if I'm ever given a moment, a few minutes, my biggest mandate to leaders is to really embody that sense that we're all together in this and the Lord often leads for margins.

31:06 That's beautiful, Jen. I hope that you're given many moments to do just that because I think it's very necessary. Yeah, any other thoughts on that? Luke, Michael. Yeah, I just, well, Yuri, you know me. Like I'm always, when we get together and Yuri, you're great at this, gathering people around the world and saying, let's meet, let's connect, let's build relationships. And whenever I come and join in, I'm always like, what are we going to do together, right? It's like, what action are we going to take? And that's a bit how I'm wired. But I love that because I think... I think we grow so much also in our relationships when we do something together, when we join together for a cause or a purpose that God has called us to.

31:48 So I like there are so many different kind of, you know, pastors or leaders, missionaries around the world that I consider deep friends who we connect with because, you know, we feel called together and we love hanging out. And that's precious. But there's also something that ties us together, you know, in God's calling. I enjoy that. And I think there's a lot more of that that we could do. We tend to just always think about how are we building our own thing and how can we get, you know, you guys talked before about that transactional relationship. Oh, how can I gain something from this? What's that person going to give me? Is there, you know, and so getting beyond that to a point where it's like, man, if we could connect on this, we could do so much more together.

32:36 And I want to bless what you're doing and I want to serve it. And I'd love you involved in what I'm doing too. And that kind of relationship, you can build some deep friendships. There's one of my friends over here in Europe is Andreas Nordli. And he's one of the YWAM leaders and he leads Descend over here in Europe. And when we get together, we love just sitting and talking and praying for each other. But also we've done so many things together where we've been in battle together, you know, and that deepens that relationship. Like we've been in so many different European countries trying to break through with unity in the church or with sharing the gospel. And I just love that. So for me, that's an important part of the relationship building.

33:17 And actually, you're highlighting something, Luke, which is so important, right, is collaboration is co and labor, right? It's the combination of those two words. So the co is the relationship, the depth of relationship. But then the labor is the action, right? So it's not just relationship for relationship's sake. It's relationship and action. And the more you invest in the action together, the more the relationship grows. And the more the relationship grows, the more the action grows, right? So you never want to drive a 10-ton truck of responsibility over a five-ton bridge of relationship because that doesn't end well. But at the same time, sometimes you've got to find that one-ton truck of responsibility to drive over the one-ton bridge of relationship so that you can go to the next level, right?

34:08 So that the co, the relationship will deepen and the labor will accelerate at the same time. It's so important that it's a both and, and that we're, back to Micah's word, intentional about both those things. So good. Good stuff. Micah, did you want to add something? No. I just think we're better together. Come on. Two people is better than one, better together all the time, better together. So we're going to wrap this up. I could spend the whole day with you guys. We had the whole day together somewhere and we weren't just staring at screens here.

34:50 But let's wrap up this conversation. And I'm going to throw in a bonus question here. So in interest of full disclosure, you guys had no idea this is coming. But I've been reading the book Necessary Endings. Uh, so I've been kind of meditating on what needs to end in order for the new thing to start. So, so here's the difficult question for today is, um, if, if you look at the future and you look at the current reality, what's the one thing that you think needs to end in order for the new thing to start? So what are we as Christian leaders, what do we need to end in order to step into this collaborative, uh, uh, you know, circle reaching embodiment, incarnation of Christ reality that we've been speaking about.

35:37 What needs to end in order for what to start in the next season? And Micah, I'm going to put you on the spot and we'll start with you. I think the, I like to call it the one-up, each other. So meaning, hey, I have an extra 50 people in my church than you do. I think that needs to end for us to become more unified and for us to collaborate. And not every time you get in the room with pastors and leaders, you have to feel like you have to be the loudest one in the room or you have to one up your church. You have to one up what you're doing, but really just again, when it comes to collaborating, being intentional with, Hey, let me take time to hear about what's happening in Luke's world before I even share, let me take time to hear about what's happening in general, what's happening in Yuri's world before I even want to put myself on a pedestal.

36:32 And I think when it comes to that, you'll really gain people's trust. You also gain the collaboration in that moment. And so I think the one up and the comparison spirit has to stop. That's good. Luke. I think it's the four walls. I think we've got to knock down the four walls and get out to where people are. So whether that be in the context of a local church or in our Christian circles and our ways of kind of getting closed into that world. I think the more we can break that down so that we can actually connect more with the world around us, we do more of what Jesus told us to do of being salt and light and being in the world, but not of the world.

37:13 So good. So good. Jan? Yeah, it's a tough question because I have to focus my answer, but it's such a great question. I would say it's going to sound simple, but the effects of it cascade profoundly. I would say we should reframe ministry success from what have we accomplished to what the kingdom gained. So if we can truly put on the lens of what will the kingdom gain, what has the kingdom gained versus defining our success by what we accomplish, what will we accomplish. The cascading effects are profound.

37:54 So good, so good. That was a profound conversation. I am deeply grateful for your time today. And for those of you listening, join the conversation. The whole point of this conversation is to have the conclusive answer. to how do we hit the ball out the park in our generation, but it's to stimulate conversations around the way the world is changing and how we need to more accurately respond to it. So may the same spirit that was on the Sons of Issachar rest on you, that you would understand the times and you would respond accurately to it. Thank you guys for joining today and look forward to seeing you guys on the next one.

38:37 Thank you, Eric.